Tag Archives: Articles

AGM, Conferences, General Quaker interest, MfW+Creative Conversation, NFN Events, NFN website, Non-theism, Publications

Nontheist religious experience and updates to this NFN website.

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I apolgise for my delay in updating.

Jim Cain has kindly shared texts with 3 slightly different versions of his presentation of 5 June on Nontheist religious experience in PDF, Word and powerpoint formats.

By scrolling through our Events page, and following links there, it is possible to find details of our past events for some years (2017-2025) and in some cases texts for earlier talks or audio recordings of the first 11 talks in 2021-22. There is still a gap in this record between Nov 2023 and Sept 2024 and I will try to get this filled in in coming weeks.

Our Articles and Newsletters page takes you back to NFN events as far as 2012.

Trevor

General Quaker interest, MfW+Creative Conversation, Non-theism

Reflections on Exploring stillness: Non-theist Quakerism and Meditation

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Reflections on Exploring stillness: Non-theist Quakerism and Meditation

(Note in the PDF of this post, hypertext links, which extend over 2 lines, break at the hyphen, so copy and paste them to make them work.) Read in conjunction with the the other PDF: Exploring stillness- Non-theist Quakerism and Meditation which was sent out in advance of the meeting.

We had a very interesting and well attended session for this topic on 4 January 2024.
I would like to set out some reflections and clarification and in particular to address David Boulton’s and Mary Pagurelias’s ‘trouble with God’ and challenge as to ‘What is the point of meditation (if you don’t believe in God)’.

Different forms of Meditation ( or Contemplation in the Western Christian tradition as John Senior explained) have been widely practised by different religious groups throughout the world for several thousand years – in Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Islam, Christianity and others.

Christian Meditation/Contemplation (or silent prayer/worship) began with the earliest Christians, especially those known as the ‘Desert Mothers and Fathers’ – hermits or anchorites who took Jesus at his word and went off into the desert (in the Middle East) in search of silence and to seek the ‘presence of God’ individually or in communities (monks and nuns) who often took vows of silence.

How does this relate to present day Meditation and non-theists (or ‘Christian Atheists’ for example)?
I tried to explain that despite identifying as a nontheist Quaker (and I don’t believe in God in any ordinarily understood meaning of that term), nonetheless I have found James Finley’s ‘Christian Meditation – Experiencing the Presence of God’ the best book on meditation of the many that I have read. Much of what Jim Finley says speaks to me clearly based on my own experience of meditation (TM) over nearly 50 years.

When Finley speaks of God, I can usually mentally delete the ‘of God’, ‘with God’ or whatever and as I don’t believe in the existence of God, to me it makes no difference to what Finley says. Clearly this would not be the case for a ‘theist’ who might conclude that I’m mistaken or crazy.

I have no ‘experience of the presence of God’ but believe that some people do have experience which THEY are happy to describe in those terms – where I would probably look for a psychological/physiological explanation. Neither in meditation (over 50 years) have I ever (yet) had an experience that I could imagine describing in that way. In this context I often reflect on David Parlett’s ’Theist cuckoo in the nontheist nest’:

and scroll down to the last recording for David’s talk.
https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/events/new-nfn-monthly-meeting-for-worship-and-creative-conversation/
and scroll down to the last recording for David’s talk.

So even if some people meditate in order to draw closer to God, what is the point of it for a ‘non-believer’?

Meditation from the Eastern traditions (especially Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Sufism) was brought to the west by various ‘gurus’ (teachers) or ‘sheikhs’ over the last 150 years or so and especially since the 1950s perhaps most famously by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (born Mahesh Prasad Varma, 1918-2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi) with a little help from the Beatles but also by ‘Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh’ (later known as ‘Osho’), Paramahansa Yogananda (1893 – 1952 – in the 1920s), the Hare Krishna movement (promoted by George Harrison) and others.

The practice of christian meditation (originally referred to as contemplation) is attributed to the Desert Fathers and Mothers (see above) and has been a practice of silence (including silent prayer) widely practised in monasteries and similar institutions mainly in the Catholic tradition. Contemporary Christian meditation practices (outside of the monasteries and abbeys) and silent prayer (including Centreing prayer) have been developed by, for example, the WCCM (World Community for Christian Meditation) (initially by John Main of Ealing Abbey and Laurence Freeman – https://wccm.org/about/) since the 1970s; The Centre for Action and Contemplation (CAC) in New Mexico led by Richard Rohr (https://cac.org/about/our-teachers/); Contemplative Outreach (https://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/history) and others.

As a result of these different traditions and their modern interpretations, it is now possible to join a meditation or silent prayer group online (or sometimes in person) at any time of day or night around the world – there are thousands of such groups from most religious traditions including many Christian ones. Perhaps Quakers are now a tiny minority amongst silent worship groups?

But to return to the question of what is the point of it for a ‘non-believer’?
TM ® (Transcendental meditation) (TM is a registered trade-mark!) was and is ‘sold’ in the west (for a fee) on the basis of ‘reducing stress, improving focus and clarity of mind, strengthening immunity and much more.’ The claims were and are claimed to be supported by scientific research, particularly of the effect of meditation on brain activity and rest (brain waves) https://uk.tm.org/benefits-of-meditation

The mantra meditation offered by the WCCM (World Community for Christian Meditation) – see above – is virtually identical and from the same source (Jyotir Math in north India) as TM so even if the intention is different, one might expect the results to be similar. (see https://wccm.org/people/john-main-osb/)

From my own experience I can say that meditation offers a similar level of ‘peace and quiet’ as Quaker meeting, but on a daily basis. Some people find TM and similar types of meditation (including WCCM Christian meditation and Centring Prayer or prayer of the heart) instantly transformative but that is not my experience.

For some people, and in some traditions, the purpose of meditation is to find ‘enlightenment’, union with God, or higher states of consciousness/awareness. George Fox wrote that he was raised into a state that Adam was in before his fall and from which he (George Fox) could also fall but then was raised into a higher state (that Christ was in?) and from which he could not fall. These sound like grandiose claims to be Christ-like or perfect but perhaps they are no more and no less than higher states of awareness. Whatever George Fox’s experience was, it seems he charismatically invited or persuaded others to carry out the same ‘experiment’ and know it for themselves. An experiment/experience which in the 17th century Fox and others would describe in Christian and godly terms. Rex Ambler has explored Fox’s experience through his writings (Journal and others) and from this developed the Experiment with Light meditations. From my limited experience of EwL (the introductory weekend course at Glenthorne and some follow-up courses) I do not think that EwL is comparable to the kind of meditation John Senior and I spoke about and referred to above but might be a useful psychological process for the purposes described by Rex Ambler and perhaps as a way to ‘clear the path’ in preparation for Meeting for Worship. (https://experiment-with-light.org.uk/meditations/)

I believe that both Quaker meeting (and silent prayer) and meditation lead to changes in awareness (or consciousness and perhaps conscience) which are beneficial to both the individual and the communities to which they belong.

As a nontheist, I also believe that God is optional – there is no point in emphatically denying God (I might be mistaken) and if others have experience which they are happy to describe in godly terms then I should respect that, even if I would suspect an alternative psychological explanation. Meditation (or contemplation/silent prayer) and perhaps chanting, ecstatic dance and trance practices I think very probably change brain function in ways which in the extreme may be likened to the effects of hallucinogens or other drugs. Meditation is often recommended for 20 minutes twice a day but on some extended courses or retreats it is possible that some might meditate for many hours a day and this might induce either ‘rapid progress’ or untoward effects.

Most ‘schools’ of meditation suggest that mind altering drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) should be avoided before and immediately after meditation. It is also usually recommended that meditators come out of their meditation slowly (for example by slowly opening the eyes) and perhaps lie down for 5 minutes afterwards or at least not jump up and start rushing about immediately. It is often further suggested that meditation can have unwelcome effects on individuals experiencing psychological difficulties and that if 20 minutes meditation proves unsettling, then perhaps to do it for only 5 or 10 minutes.

Despite all the ‘god-talk’ from some meditation groups, I think it is always possible to find a nontheist perspective. Jennifer Kavanagh in Quaker Quicks ‘Practical Mystics – Quaker Faith in Action’ writes (p9) “Underhill’s use of the word ‘Reality’ is significant. There are many who find the word ‘God’ uncomfortable. Mysticism can be found in people of all religions and none, from both inside and outside the framework of institutional religion.” and, on the same page, quotes Dorothee Soelle (Sölle); “It makes no difference – and this point has been confirmed by everyone who has ever reported on mystical experience – whether these experiences are interpreted with the aid of a personal God or nontheistically, as in oriental mysticism. Whether we see these experiences in terms of the Tao or of God is not central to them.”

Joanna Godfrey Wood in the Quaker Quicks ‘In Search of Stillness – Using a simple meditation to find inner peace’ offers the simple meditation I read out in our meeting on 4 January and writes: (p9) “But how can you find this stillness? It comes unbidden in flashes of awareness, though simply knowing about it and thinking about it is helpful. You start from a place of silence, which may not mean complete quiet, which is impossible, and move to a different place, where there is nothing.” Or, as John Senior put it “Nothing happens” (no, it just happens). Joanna also writes (p15) “A good place to start trying to find, develop or increase, the stillness in life is to go to a Quaker meeting. This is a place … where you can search freely for stillness within and find it individually and in community too, as a connected group. You will feel part of the group even if you do not know the people individually yet. It is the stillness that binds you and creates the group.” This seems to answer John’s question “Is meditation an acceptable practice for ‘Worship’?” in the affirmative, at least for Joanna.

John seems to find, in his quotations from Geoffrey Hubbard, Advices and Queries, James Nayler, George Fox and William Penn, the same kind of basis for a Quaker meditation as Rex Ambler claimed to find from his analysis of Fox’s writings. To know the difference between Experiment with Light and other forms of meditation (Contemplation), you would need to try them and judge for yourself.

Over the last couple of years, I have found sitting (online) in silent prayer with a mixed group of Anglicans, Methodists and others and joining a Centring Prayer Group (online) organised by Quaker Richard Eddlestone for Quakers every three weeks an instructive experience. There are many ways, places, methods and techniques to experience silence, stillness and meditation, and Quaker Meeting is not unique in this regard EXCEPT for the possibility of ’spoken ministry’.

John’s other question was “Is meditation distinguishable from ‘Worship’?” I think, even if you confine this to silent Quaker meetings, the answer is yes because there is more (and sometimes less) going on in a Quaker Meeting. We know from surveys and our own experience that Friends do many different things in meeting. We might be reflecting on scripture, our Christian roots or the teachings of Jesus (ie. ‘discursive meditation – see above), we might be sleeping, praying, reading, looking out the window, meditating (some do, at least some of the time), listening in silence or for or to spoken ministry, speaking ourselves (from wherever that might come) and certainly, at least some of the time, thinking. So this is much more open and varied than ‘merely’ meditating but it may also be ‘less than’ meditating if meditating is deep contemplation – perhaps experience of unity or non-duality. Perhaps the sense of a ‘gathered meeting’ arises when all or most feel themselves to be in the same place (of deep prayer or meditation?). Whether spoken ministry might flow from the gathered meeting, or instead through individuals at other times is perhaps a point to ponder.

Answering my own questions, I think ’Spirit’ is a feeling, impulse or ‘life force’ (uniquely human??) which, according to Jesus, we should not deny:
Jesus says, in effect, you may ‘blaspheme against the Son’ (and in one case ‘the Father’) but not against the Spirit; Mark 3:28-30 “28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” (KJV); Luke 12:10 “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”; and non-canonical Thomas logion 44 “Jesus said, “Whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.” I’ve always taken these to mean that there is some ‘spirit’ behind everything which might be ‘the light of pure reason’ (Winstanley) or the life-force found in everything which is alive.

At very least, I take these sayings attributed to Jesus to mean there is something vitally important somewhere (in us, in each human being?) that we should not deny – perhaps what Quakers have often called ‘that of God in everyone’ or the Light (and many other terms) and we might choose to call the wholly (holy?) human spirit.

Try a search on the NFN website for ‘Jesus’ and you will find currently 23 links (24 when this is added) to various posts and articles between 2015 (or 1997) and 2023 including David Boulton’s ‘Faith of a Quaker humanist’ which has interesting humanist/nontheist references to Faith, Jesus, Worship, Prayer, Mysticism (including meditation) and Spirituality, the last quoting William Blake and “Thus men forgot that all deities reside in the human breast.”

Michael Wright (clerk of NFN for 3 years 2016-2018) wrote of Meeting for Worship: “There may also be times when we feel absolutely nothing and wonder if it has been a pointless exercise. It can be disheartening to have a succession of experiences like this. However, when something changes, either in our meeting or in ourselves and we experience something of the best that a Quaker gathered meeting can be, then we know we have ‘a pearl of great price’.” https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/jesus-today-book.pdf (page 29).

We might say something similar about Meditation. Sometimes, nothing happens. James Finley writes: (CM p219-220) “Sometimes our fatigue and distractions prevail. But no matter, for the more seasoned we become in this simple practice, the more we come to realize that, regardless of what we are experiencing at the moment, we can know and trust that nothing is missing in it. Our times of restless fatigue and our times of sublime rested alertness have an absolute and equal value. This awareness grants the peace that surpasses understanding. This peace is accompanied by a sense of quiet awe in realizing that our experience in the present moment, just as it is, is the fullness of God, one with us just as we are.” (and similar passages elsewhere in the book). Now, if I just delete ‘of God’ from this passage I am left with ‘fullness, one with us just as we are’. That sounds remarkably like the Upanishads which often enough manage without ‘God’.

I would sum up by saying that meditation is a useful practice for peace and rest and preparation for meeting and it is (in my opinion – and others see above) irrelevant whether you believe in god or indeed what you believe at all. Perhaps I could add to John’s various quotations, QF&P 20.11;

“Love silence, even in the mind… Much speaking, as much thinking, spends; and in many thoughts, as well as words, there is sin. True silence is the rest of the mind; and is to the spirit, what sleep is to the body, nourishment and refreshment.”

William Penn, 1699

Meditation may provide that ‘True silence’ and ‘rest of the mind’ on a regular (or daily) basis between weekly meetings for Worship. I hope that answers David’s and Mary’s question and would certainly recommend giving meditation a try.

General Quaker interest, NFN Events, Non-theism

Spirituality, mysticism, non-duality, and non-theism

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First a quick NFN news roundup.
On Thursday (2nd November) we had a most interesting presentation by Al Palmer of Saline, Michigan USA at our monthly Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation. This has prompted this longer than usual post. About a dozen Friends from the USA were present (out of 64 in total) and a number of these attend or organise the NTF meetings in America which a few of us from the UK attend occasionally.

Nontheist Friends in North America (NTF) continue to meet regularly and details can be found through the google group; https://groups.google.com/g/nontheist-friends/
I believe the next meeting of NTF (after the Contemplative Sharing meeting at 4pm tomorrow 11 November) will be on Sunday 19th November at 7pm EDT so rather late for us at I think midnight GMT when Robin Alpern will present on ‘Do you consider yourself a pacifist?
Does nontheism have anything to do with your views on the peace testimony?’

The NTF meeting after that is December 5 which is the first Tuesday in December.
When it is hoped to talk about the the first four writings in ‘Godless for God’s Sake’.
This will be at 4pm Eastern Time so a little more convenient 9pm (please check!) in the UK.
I understand Robin Alpern, whose piece was the first of the four, and David Boulton as editor of ‘Godless for God’s Sake’, will likely be in attendance.

Our next NFN meeting will be on Thursday 7th December at 7pm (2pm USA Eastern) on ‘FOX AND US: What does the life and ministry of George Fox mean for a nontheist Friend?’
January’s (4th January) is still being finalised but may be a conversation about meditation and the practice of silence or stillness.

Reflecting on the State of Your Spirituality
Al Palmer’s presentation gave us much to reflect on.  David Boulton raised the question of ‘two types of nontheist Quaker’: those who are content to stick with poetic, metaphorical and non-literal interpretations of ‘old or traditional’ language (God and all the rest as metaphor and so on) and those who need ‘new language’ to say what they mean. (In the plenary session, it was Andrea Henley Heyn from the US who raised this question of old and new language and sensitivity around this and David later put it in terms of different kinds of non-theists.) I think we will have to refer again to ‘God, words and us’ to which David, Michael Wright and others contributed.
I think there is quite a broad range of nontheist views which does not just depend on language used. We can perhaps see a continuum from ‘no nonsense’ materialists or convinced atheists at one end (there ain’t no God’) to agnostics, universalists, ’I may be mistakens’, ‘still seekings’ and nontheist cuckoos ( not your usual conceptions of God) at the other.
At most, we all agree (I think) that there is no ‘old man in the sky with a long white beard’ as portrayed by William Blake (who didn’t believe in that kind of God either).
What to make though of other language and concepts like the divine, spirit, spirituality, mysticism, worship, prayer and so on.
In what follows, I’m going to include a number of links to articles in Wikipedia as an easy way to start looking at what others think or hold.
Some nontheists are uncomfortable with the word ‘divine’ for example, thinking that it implies a divinity (God) in which they do not believe. Others (non-theists) like myself are quite comfortable with that word as a loose term (perhaps thinking of chocolate) and even with the ‘divine presence’ – something like a ‘gathered meeting’ or ‘the sense of the meeting’ perhaps. When Georgina and I got married at our meeting in London, in our declaration (QF&P 16.52 – https://qfp.quaker.org.uk/passage/16-52/) we chose promising, ‘through divine assistance,’ rather than ‘with God’s help’.

Mysticism is another word uncomfortable for some nontheists, perhaps associating it with magic or something ‘supernatural’. For other nontheists it is simply an acceptance some things are a mystery (consciousness for example?), that we don’t (yet) know everything and that in any case there is more to life and our psychology or mind than the purely rational.
Wikipedia writes: “The term “mystical experience” has become synonymous with the terms “religious experience”, spiritual experience and sacred experience” in an article entitled ’Scholarly approaches to mysticism’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly_approaches_to_mysticism#Mystical_experience

‘Worship’ as a word to describe Meeting has its difficulties, not fully resolved perhaps by Advices and Queries 8&9 for example, which rely heavily on ‘God’. See what Michael Wright (our former clerk, who died a couple of years ago) said towards the end (p17 handout 2) of his talk on ‘Prayer beyond belief’ ten years ago; https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/prayer-beyond-belief.pdf (or under Articles on the website). See also what he had to say about Gretta Vosper and her approach to prayer further down the Articles page.

Spirit and spirituality seem to raise fewer problems for nontheists although some (incorrectly I think) tend to associate them with ‘spiritualism’, genies and the many spirits of older religions. Intriguing NT passages for me are when Jesus says, in effect, you may ‘blaspheme against the Son’ (and in one case ‘the Father’) but not against the Spirit; Mark 3:28-30  “28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” (KJV); Luke 12:10 “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”; and non-canonical Thomas logion 44 “Jesus said, “Whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.”  I’ve always taken these to mean that there is some ‘spirit’ behind everything which might be ‘the light of pure reason’ (Winstanley) or the life-force found in everything which is alive.
Non-duality, related to meditation or contemplation ( see the talk on 4th January) was the subject of two talks by John Tissandier to the Quaker Universalist Group in April and May. But see the article in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

Let’s see what tomorrow brings.

General Quaker interest, Publications

Articles and newsletters

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No newsletters have been produced since August 2022. This is because the general view (of members and Steering Group) seems to be that newsletters are no longer necessary given our regular monthly meetings online and email communications. But see Tim’s comment below. In addition, we have no-one who wants to produce one. It is possible that occasional newsletters may appear in future – probably in email form.

But do have a scroll down through NFN Articles from 2012 to 2023 here, (https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/articles/) where you will also find all the newsletters from 2013 to 2022.

General Quaker interest, MfW+Creative Conversation, NFN Events, Non-theism

MfW+Creative Conversation Thursday 4 May – Are Nontheist Quakers Humanists?

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Dear Friends,
We hope this finds you well.  Many thanks to John Richter for inspiring participants to reflect and share diverse perspectives during April’s Meeting.
Please join us for our next Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation in May.
4 May QM+CC at 7PM BST/2PM EDT by Zoom, will introduce the concern, Are Nontheist Quakers Humanists? (A conversation between Friends).
For additional context and preparation, we encourage you to enjoy a talk delivered by Andrew Copson, executive director of Humanists UK (British Humanists Association), from NFN’s July 2021 conference, That’s the Spirit! – Dimensions of Spirituality.
You can also read David Boulton’s QUG pamphlet ‘The Faith of a Quaker Humanist‘.
General layout: 
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM UK time, please arrive early. 
• 7PM UK time: Welcome and Quaker Meeting (~20 minutes): Sharing silence with one another for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting. 
• Creative Conversation and Discussion (~1 hour): Different participants will introduce a thought provoking, occasionally debatable question, brief statement, and/or reading.  This will be followed by an inspired discussion amongst all participants for creative exchanges and opportunities to disagree.
• Conclusion: Thoughts and a few moments to share silence. 
• After Announcements the Zoom Room will remain open for friendly chats and community. 
• Duration:1hr:30m-2hr:00m Additional information about our QM+CC can be found on our website. If you are interested in attending and have not registered, please reply to this email.If you previously registered, there is no need to re-register, you are on the list.  You will automatically receive Zoom links to this and subsequent Meetings, approximately one week before each Meeting and a reminder the day of.  We ask that you please do not share the Zoom link with interested Friends, but encourage them to email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register. You may unregister/unsubscribe at any time by replying to this email address.In Friendship,
The QM+CC Working group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, and Kiera Faber)
Nontheist Friends Network ALL are welcome to attend Nontheist Friends Network events regardless of Membership, beliefs, and/or religious affiliation. If you would like to support NFN and our endeavours, please consider renewing your membership, becoming a new member, or making a donation by filling out our Membership and Donations Form.  Thank you in advance for your generous support!
NFN website

Web Working Group – test-Trevor-as-Contributor

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A little tutorial. The new web working group comprises Chris, Catherine, Steven, Tim (the last three on the Steering Group), Ella and myself Trevor.

So, having gone through some hoops (using a different web-browser, otherwise wordpress thinks I’m the same old Trevor and won’t let me play this game) I follow the invite link, do the necessary to sign up as a new user then follow this invite link to arrive at an ‘admin’ page and choose ‘Posts’ from the left-hand black column and notice in the top right-hand corner of the window ‘Screen Options’, ‘Help’ and ‘View’. None of it makes much sense (even to me!) but ‘View’ gives me a choice of the default design (new ‘Block’) editor and the ‘old’ Classic editor. I choose the default (Block) and am horrified so follow the mini-tutorial on the left of that window – I’m still horrified (incomprehensible to me) so I go back (with a little difficulty) and choose the Classic editor instead.

So I end up here, it looks very easy (but I am familiar with it!) – and I can still edit the HTML (Text in the top right corner of the editing window) if I want to. If I don’t, I just type away here (in ‘Visual’ mode) – easy peasy.

Then I can ‘Submit for Review’ (so the old Trevor or Tim) could review and publish! I might do that.

I can also choose other Formats in the right-hand column (though I can’t think that they are all appropriate); I can choose Categories just below that (recommended, otherwise it’s uncategorised) and I can add Tags below that – taking the easy option and choosing from the most used tags – or write in a new one (Add) which I’ll call ‘Tutorial’. (I’ll also choose Articles from the most used even though it’s a post and I could add my name if I haven’t used that as my user name.

I can Save the Draft (top of column on right – takes a few seconds) and also Preview which might be a good idea?

At this point I can see I have typed 327 words. (328)

I don’t see below here the option to allow comments or Replies to the post – will have to investigate!

I can close the Preview window to return here and continue editing and the Preview showed me that Comments (Leave a Reply) are enabled. Please comment!

I’m now up to 400 words and will submit for review – hope it’s useful.

Conferences, General Quaker interest, NFN Events, NFN website, Non-theism

NFN Newsletter Issue April 2022

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Familiar? Graphics is not my strong point – there’s quite a story behind the above attempt to re-create the masthead from David’s last newsletter.

Greetings Friends and welcome to our Spring 2022 Newsletter!

At the NFN AGM on 17 February, a couple of Friends suggested that perhaps it would be a good idea to continue the newsletter which could be emailed out to everyone on our wider mailing list and even printed and posted for the small number not on email. Printed copies could also be left at Meetings, Friends House and Woodbrooke etc. as a form of ‘outreach’. I have in the past produced a local meeting newsletter on the meeting website with the option of a printed copy. As the proposed NFN working group(s) for a newsletter and beyond the group for the ‘Creative Conversations’ do not seem to have yet been implemented, I thought I would produce an occasional newsletter in the form of a post on our website – so here it is for spring.

Creative conversations
Our next MfW and Creative conversation is at 7pm on Thursday 7 April, 2022: David Parlett,  A Theist Cuckoo in the Nontheist Nest. For further details look on the website at:

David Parlett – A Theist Cuckoo in the Nontheist Nest

Details of further conversations will be emailed and posted when available.

If you are interested in sharing your Creative Conversation with the Working Group, or would like to join us, email clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk. If you have already registered you will automatically receive links to our Zooms approximately a week before each meeting. As ever we would love to hear from you!

Nontheist approaches to religious language
This course took place on ‘zoom’ and Woodbrooke’s ‘moodle’ learning environment with Rhiannon Grant from 28th February to 27th March. About 20 Friends took part, possibly a majority might identify as nontheist Friends and a number of us from NFN were present, but a wide range of ‘theist’, ‘humanist’ and ‘nontheist’ viewpoints were represented. The discussions on the Moodle Forum for the course were most interesting.

The course was oversubscribed and we are told it is likely to be offered again, perhaps this year – look out for it and I would thoroughly recommend it. By the end of the course I was thinking ‘now we need a course on Nontheist approaches to God’ – but see below.

Further courses at Woodbrooke
We have already publicised the above and two other courses coming up soon:
The three courses are given by Rhiannon Grant. They are:

(Please note that these courses are organised by Woodbrooke and designed by Rhiannon Grant. They are not produced by the Nontheist Friends Network.) To judge by the first, I believe these shorter further courses will also be well worth attending and several of us have signed up for them already. (Pay as led).

Pronouns
The following pronouns are used in this issue: we/us/our means those who ‘manage’ NFN business – Steering Group, Working groups, NFN members, website or newsletter contributors etc. I/me means Trevor Bending as website editor and producer of this issue. I hope that future issues will include your contributions: articles, quotes, images, jokes, comments, letters etc. (See the end of the newsletter/post to see how to contribute. You can also make comments/leave a reply on the website below and on most other pages). Suggested deadline for submissions to a next issue (Summer 2022?) is mid-June – 21st if you like. I’d also be happy to accept contributions or responses to this issue for supplementary publication before the next issue.

Quaker blogosphere and social media
Quakers across the world, including nontheist Friends, are very active on the internet. There is a well-established nontheist Friends Facebook group with American and British moderators (Helen Gilbert is the British moderator). The group is public, so anyone can view it and the very interesting discussions that take place there, but to comment you will have to sign up to Facebook and apply to join the group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1631439757083868

One American Friend who posts there regularly is Chuck Fager editor of Quaker Theology whose website/blog ‘A Friendly Letter’ is worth a visit. Rhiannon Grant’s blog ‘Brigid, Fox and Buddha‘ is definitely worth following along with 213 other followers. Speaking of followers, the NFN website is now followed by over 250 people.

Other Quaker blogs include:
Ben Wood’s ‘The Armchair Theologian’ – although this doesn’t seem to have been updated for 16 months.

Craig Barnett, author, Woodbrooke tutor and co-founder of the City of Sanctuary movement who currently serves on the Book of Discipline Revision Committee has a blog called ‘transitionquaker‘ and you might begin with his post (from 2014!) on ‘The Imaginary Theist’

Another Woodbrooke tutor, Mark Russ, has a blog at https://jollyquaker.com/

Another (professional) Quaker theologian, Rachel Muers, has a blog which she posts to somewhat intermittently, sometimes controversially. https://rachelmuers.wordpress.com/

Quakerquaker is an interesting blog/forum with multiple contributors expressing alternative views.

The senior editor of Friends Journal has a topical blog here: https://www.quakerranter.org/

Finally, for blogs today, Friends’ House has an active blog with various contributors: https://www.quaker.org.uk/blog

(Many of these blogs and quite a few more are listed here: https://blog.feedspot.com/quakers_blogs/)

There are also several Quaker Universalist Facebook Groups, American and British, and the websites of the UK Quaker Universalist Group, the American Quaker Universalists and our American Nontheist Friends (to which we also link on our website). Those American Friends also still maintain the nontheist google group which is very lightly moderated and springs into life from time to time!

Other current and forthcoming events
We have already mentioned David’s talk this Thursday above, the courses at Woodbrooke, and the Quaker Universalist Group Conference on Health and Healing is taking place this weekend at Woodbrooke and online. Friends may also be interested in the upcoming conference (‘Living Truth – A Rallying Call for Quakers’) of the new Quaker Truth and Integrity Group (QTIG) which is taking place online from 25-30 April. Speakers include Rachel Muers, Ben Wood, Jane Dawson and Molly Scott-Cato. Attendance is free but requires booking now. The session on Saturday morning (30 April) Drawing things together, agreeing an epistle, and framing next steps hopes for all participants to contribute ideas towards ‘helping Friends live out our Testimony to Truth in the power of love’ out of a ‘concern for the state of truth and integrity in public life across the UK and indeed more widely, (and) the Quaker Truth and Integrity Group seeks to discern what might be done to help redress the current situation.’ QTIG has a steering group, the clerk is Gerald Hewitson assisted by Jan Arriens and I’m pleased to say we have been able to help Jan with developing their website using QMN (Quaker Meetings Network) software (https://quaker.app/about/) which is designed for Quaker Meetings and recognised groups to create, fairly easily, websites with no knowledge, or desire to have any, of HTML, style sheets and the like. Jan has managed to do this very well and the website now has some 11 pages. (By way of comparison the NFN website has evolved, over 10 years since Brian Wardrop first created it, to have some 45 pages, numerous additional articles, documents, sound files and images etc., 133 posts, over 400 comments and some 250 followers – more about this below).

Quaker Humanist
In the last newsletter produced by David Boulton, I drew attention to David’s 1997 Quaker Universalist pamphlet, The Faith of a Quaker Humanist. A number of the participants in the ‘NARLA’ (Nontheist Approaches to Religious Language) course outlined above would probably identify as ‘Quaker Humanists’. I’ll put here an extract from that pamphlet – the section on ‘Faith’. David wrote:

Quakers will have no problem with the word “faith”. Theirs is a religious tradition, and in religious traditions faith invariably occupies a central place. Friends have their own (regularly revised) book of “faith and practice”. Humanists, on the other hand, generally avoid the word, precisely because of its religious connotations. This is a fairly recent preference. Nineteenth and early twentieth century humanists were often happy to write of their “faith”, even of their “religion”. As late as 1960 Julian Huxley gave one of his broadcasts the title The Faith of a Humanist. But today humanists usually prefer to see themselves as representing a “world view” rather than a “faith tradition”.

I have no quarrel with that. I am not going to challenge the convention that, when we talk of faith traditions, world faiths, inter-faith dialogue, we generally mean religious traditions, world religions and religious dialogue. We do not normally regard, say, socialism or existentialism or humanism as faiths in this sense. But few would deny that there is a strong element of faith in all these secular isms. Some of us would say it takes a lot of faith to remain a socialist these days! And perhaps in the light of the cumulative inhumanities of the twentieth century, it takes a lot of faith to be any kind of humanist.

So I am using “faith” not in its acquired sense as a body of religious beliefs but in its more basic sense of a kind of combination of trust and hope. Faith in this basic sense is not about belonging to a religious group, still less about believing dogma simply because that is required of us by some outside authority and tradition. Faith is the voluntary acceptance of certain uncertainties, and the willingness to trust and hope despite those uncertainties.

I fall in love. I trust and hope that my beloved loves me as I love her. I cannot furnish myself with irrefutable, logical, scientific proof that she loves me and that our mutual love will last till death doth us part. Indeed, common experience offers plentiful evidence which might presuppose me to assume the contrary! My acceptance of her love, and my giving of my love to her, has to be an act of faith. I promise to be faithful. Our lives together are based on this trust and confidence – con-fidence, “with faith”. And that faith has to be constantly renewed. From time to time it may fade, or be broken. But such faith has its own imperatives for survival and growth.

On a more mundane level, I fall ill. I call the doctor. There is no certainty that her medicine will cure me. I know only too well that medical science is inexact, imperfectly understood even by doctors. But I place my confidence in her. I have faith in her proposed remedies, albeit a rather sceptical kind of faith which is contingent on their working at least some of the time.

I live in a consumer society where the free market is god, where greed is exalted, where property rights take precedence over human rights, where there is said to be no such thing as society. I have lived through a massive dismantling of collective and cooperative enterprise and a triumphalist demolition of social values. If I remain a socialist, a communist or a liberal social democrat, I exemplify the triumph of faith over experience. Faith, to borrow Byron’s image, is flying the flag of freedom (or whatever banner we may be carrying) against the wind.

My point is that it takes faith to be a humanist or a Quaker. There is no certainty, no logic of history, no immutable grand design which guarantees that all will be well, and all manner of things will be well; that love will prevail  over hatred, “that of God in ·everyone” over that of the devil, the “ocean of light” over “the ocean of darkness and death”. If, before we try to live by them, we demand rational demonstration or proof that human values of love, compassion, sympathy and fellowship will prevail, we shall never get started. If we choose to try to live by these values, to build a society in which these values are exemplified, we had better recognise that we are unfurling our banners against the wind. We are choosing to live by faith.

So I am not proclaiming a new faith-tradition, a belief-system called Quaker Humanism! I am saying what is obvious: that we live by faith, whether we like it or not. And I am saying, which is perhaps less obvious, that there is much common ground between Quaker faith and humanist faith, which is what we are about to explore, first by unpacking the word …
Quaker … so David continues and we will consider whether to offer any further extracts in future newsletters. In the meantime you can read the whole pamphlet here.

Continuing this theme, Tony Philpott, clerk to QUG, wrote a book in 2013 called ‘From Christian to Quaker‘ that can be found here: https://qug.org.uk/publications/books/from-christian-to-quaker/
That would make useful preparation for the ‘Are Quakers Christian’ course mentioned above.

Similarly, Michael Wright, clerk to NFN from 2015 to 2018 (sadly, Michael died last year) wrote his account of Jesus in his book ‘Jesus Today‘. (link takes you to the pdf of the book on the website). and that too might be useful preparation for that course and for ‘Why attend meeting for worship if you don’t believe in God’..

The website
I have heard no further about a working group to consider our website (and use of social media) but will be happy to work with that if it happens. In the meantime please send any suggestions or contributions for the website to me (see below).

I will try to give some helpful tips for using the website.

The appearance varies significantly as between a laptop or desktop computer on the one hand and a phone or mobile device on the other and whether you use the latter in portrait or landscape mode (turn the phone sideways!) and on the size of the screen. On a mobile you can scroll to the very bottom and choose ‘View full site’, but you will then need to view it landscape.

On the full site the main menu is the 8 items across the top of the screen (below Nontheist Quakers)

which are: HOME           NEWS       ABOUT            EVENTS               FAQ       ARTICLES        CONTACT          HOW TO?

These items are on every page and remain at the top of the page even when you scroll down. Home takes you to whatever is currently the home page (sometimes varies); NEWS is news (the latest and previous posts);  About is about NFN and has a drop down menu of 5 items (6 pages including About). Events you can guess (past, present and future) with a drop down menu (varies). FAQ is Frequently Asked Questions and has one further item, also about Nontheism and a book, in the drop down menu.  Articles has articles and newsletters (drop down with two items) going back to 2013.  Contact takes you to a form to fill in to contact us via the website editor (I pass messages on or answer them myself as appropriate). How To? tells you what I’m telling you now but is much more complicated and somewhat out of date.

The left hand column (white on black) disappears if you reduce the size of the window (or on a small tablet) and is a site map which is not especially useful. Look instead in the right hand column which is mostly green on white and has more navigation options. It will only disappear if you make the window extremely narrow when it then appears right down the bottom above the white on black column which has also then located itself there. All this is perfectly standard practice for window navigation on the web.

That right hand column contains ‘Search…’ which is very useful for finding everything about say ‘Jesus’, ‘Bible’ or ‘David Boulton’ (5 pages in the latter case – try it, it’s fun! I just tried ‘Elephant’ and it brings up one item).
This search will NOT find items in Articles or documents (pdf, Word etc.) – scroll down the Articles page to see what is there.

In the case of a mobile phone or narrow tablet (unless viewing ‘full site’ – see above) it’s quite different: You will then see a single column (the current home page) with Menu and Search at the top. (Turning it sideways – landscape – just makes it larger and easier to read). You can scroll to the very bottom for ‘full site’ as mentioned above (passing much of interest on the way???) but if you tap on Menu, you will get a drop down menu of the 8 main items and their sub-pages. You can also tap on Search and then enter your search term – on my phone you then have to tap ‘go’ to activate it but may vary depending on phone or tablet.

I think that’s more than enough – have fun exploring the site (45 pages plus lots of interesting articles and documents) and don’t forget to enter your email address to follow the site if you haven’t already done so. Oh, and leave your ‘replies’ or comments anywhere indicated on the site – if your comment doesn’t appear immediately, wait a day or so for it to be ‘moderated’ – and tick the check-boxes for ‘Notify me of new comments by email’ and ‘Notify me of new posts by email’. Any questions? Email me!

At 5 pages of A4, this newsletter is shorter than David’s last one by 1 page – I’ll try and do better next time – send me those articles!

NFNnewsletterApril2022 – Word version (most hypertext links should work)

NFNnewsletterApril2022 – pdf version (to print; probably only links which show full url’s will work)

The Newsletter is published three or four times a year. To keep up with NFN events visit our website www.nontheist-quakers.org.uk. For more information about the Network email clerk@nontheist-quakers.com. To contribute to the Newsletter or the website email trevor at humber.co.uk (remove spaces and replace at with @).

 

General Quaker interest, NFN Events, NFN website

March 2021 newsletter and website updates

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An excellent March 2021 newsletter edited by David Boulton was emailed out to NFN members on 22 February and has been added to the website today. (You will find it under ‘Articles-Newsletters’).
(And do have a browse of past articles on that Articles page).

Further speakers and dates have been added to our new ‘Meeting for worship and Creative Conversations‘ programme. (that link just returns you to the homepage, correct at this time, but sometime in the future you might have to look for that page elsewhere).

For feedback and to comment on the first meeting on 4 March, see that post.

Other changes to the website include the addition of ‘Google translate’ for overseas visitors and a ‘flag counter’ (right hand column) some months ago which shows that we have had over 1000 UK visitors, 700 US visitors and over 300 from 45 other countries since last October (5 months). I’m not sure what to make of that!

General Quaker interest, NFN Events, Non-theism

Feedback and reflections on NFN MfW&CC 4 March 2021

8 Comments

As mentioned elsewhere in Comments, and as one of over 85 participants, I thought for a first attempt on zoom it went rather well tonight.  This seems like an excellent place for some ‘fizz’ (or is it ‘phys’, snap, crackle and pop?) on the website.

I would like to invite all present at the meeting tonight to offer their feedback, reflections, queries, suggestions and comments here on the website. (Please comment or ‘Leave a reply’ below – comments will appear within 24 hours or so after moderation).

I would like to set the ball rolling by congratulating John Senior on what I thought was an excellent presentation drawn from mainly familiar sources, for provoking much thought, comment and reflection and for being delightfully short, leaving more time for those contributions from many.

Your comments here might include further reflection, references OR comments and suggestions on technical matters and organisation.

We have already had 3 comments (ahead of the meeting) on timing (answered in the comments). One attendee tonight would have liked to start a little earlier whereas I thought a little later (after the children have gone to bed? – see those comments).

There will never be a perfect timing – always inconvenient for somebody and I’m sure the working group will want to leave that as it is at least for the next 3 months tho’ perhaps that can be looked at in the future.

Some people struggled a bit with zoom but that gets easier with practice and I’d suggest people who want to speak, unmute themselves first, whilst keeping quiet and then be ready to speak when invited.  Not quite in the spirit of ‘worship sharing’ but some people obviously felt confident to say or answer something very briefly by interjecting. (Please don’t do that to hold the floor!).  Otherwise as Mackenzie (University Friends Meeting, USA) advised: For anyone looking for the “Raise Hand” button, you might find it under “Reactions” (new zoom) or under Participants (old zoom). (And once raised an option changes to remove raised hand).

For the same Mackenzie, the website I was referring to for Michael Wright’s article on prayer was of course THIS Website! See under ‘Articles’ and scroll down for several articles by Michael which include ‘Prayer beyond belief‘ where Michael deals with ‘The Bible; God; Jesus; Doctrine; and Prayer’ and the section on prayer is a substantial part of the article although he mentions other points relevant to our conversations tonight.

Another suggestion made in the meeting was to have breakout meetings next time for smaller groups (and giving more people time to say something – 8 supporters) whereas others preferred to keep it as one whole group. In some ways, though it might be a bit of a technical burden on the hosts, it might be possible to combine both, with those who want smaller groups to be allocated to say upto half a dozen breakout rooms at random leaving those who prefer ‘a big session’ together in the main room for the others to rejoin at will.  That would certainly be an experiment but it might work.

I will finish with a few quotes from the chat transcription, including references and John’s texts and then it’s over to YOU to continue the conversation if you will.

John Senior Llanidloes to Everyone : Texts quoted:
A&Q 1 & 3
F&P 19.04, George Fox, 1648
F&P 19.07, George Fox, 1652
*George Fox’s letter to Lady Elizabeth Claypole, 1658
F&P 21.65, James Nayler
*William Penn in ‘No Cross, no Crown’, 1682
F&P 26.12, Geoffrey Hubbard, 1974
F&P 20.06 Philip Rack, 1979
*These items should be available online
*Here is the extract from Fox’s letter to Lady Elizabeth Catchpole (Oliver Cromwell’s second daughter) in 1658 quoted in part by John: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/fox_g/autobio.xvii.html#fnf_xvii-p17.1
Elizabeth died later the same year aged 29 and her father died later the same year.
*Here is William Penn’s ‘No Cross, no Crown’:
https://www.gospeltruth.net/Penn/nocrossnocrownIndex.htm
I don’t know if John might provide the quote he used?
John has now provided the text of his presentation and it is available here: https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/news/john-senior/

From Mackenzie (she/her) University Friends Meeting, USA to Everyone : From North Pacific Yearly Meeting’s F&P (3rd Ed, p.19 – p32 of pdf a 303 page 6Mb document) on nontheist Friends: A number of Friends in NPYM do not believe in the existence of a deity. This perspective cannot be described fully in a few words. Many nontheist Friends live in awe and wonder of the world, feel deep and mysterious connection to people and nature, and are convinced of the infinite sanctity of life. Nontheist Friends share strong callings to service, to the mystery and power of the gathered meeting, and to the importance of community in spiritual growth. Nontheists are warmly welcomed and valued as members of our Friends meetings. (see also http://www.nontheistfriends.org/ our Friends in the USA)

From Michael Boulton in BC Canada to Everyone : For me Quaker Worship is an act of Listening, being open to promptings wherever it comes. It is not noise of profession, but is of active listening, silencing all noise from inside and the external world.

From Enna to Everyone : Can I ask, do you feel comfortable using the phrase: “holding you in the light” instead of “praying for you”
And if so, how does what was said earlier about the light being a luminosity experienced during our stillness, relate to this phrase? or is it a different meaning.

From Gisela Creed to Everyone : I just say: thinking of you with all my heart.

From Pat Blackheath SELAM to Everyone : A good question. Are we humanists? or ?  (David Boulton a principal founder of NFN who was with us tonight wrote for the Quaker Universalist Group in 1997 ‘The Faith of a Quaker Humanist‘)

From Helen to Everyone : I hope we have not let go of the possibility of mystical experiences in the silence from whatever the source or attribution it is given either internal or external, for me listening in the silence is the experience that matters, but even though I identify as non-theist I have felt great feeling so love and joy in the silence that felt mystical. I do not know how to pray or hold others in the light except to feel love for them or send love to them in my thoughts so I hope that suffices!

From Paul to Everyone : Jesus lived 2000 years ago and the Buddha lived 2,500 years ago or so and we find their ideas helpful so George Fox is fairly recent in comparison.

I have included above a selection of chat comments with names and hope that is acceptable. I could put the whole transcript (as I got it) on the website for those who didn’t save it but that would involve having everyone (who contributed)’s names there so it might be better to email the clerk if you didn’t and would like a copy.

Now it’s my bedtime too and it really is over to you to continue with any appropriate comments below. (If there are a lot, I won’t respond to all, but you too can help by responding too – Creative Conversations!)