Tag Archives: theological Diversity

QM+Creative Conversation Thursday 1 May 2025 – 7 Types of Atheism

Dear Friends,
Many thanks to William Purser for sharing his thoughts on HOPE and inspiring our creative conversation in April.

We welcome you to join us on Thursday 1 May at 7PM BST/2PM EDT for our next QM+CC.  Catherine Carr will share her thoughts on Seven Types of Atheism.
 
Please note this will be our last QM+CC for the season as we do not have a speaker for June and we take a summer holiday for July and August.  We will resume on 4 September.
 As a friendly reminder, we will resend the Zoom to registered participants only, the day of the Meeting.
You may unregister/unsubscribe from our monthly Meetings or NFN communication at any time by replying to this email address.

The evening’s plan is as follows:
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM (UK time), please arrive early.
• 7PM: Welcome and Quaker Meeting (~20 minutes): Sharing silence with one another for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting.
• Creative Conversation and Discussion (~1 hour): Concern introduced; followed by interactive discussions.
• Conclusion: Thoughts and a few moments to share silence.
• After Announcements the Zoom Room will remain open for friendly chats and community.
• Duration:1hr:30m-2hr:00m

We look forward to seeing you soon!
In Friendship,
The QM+CC Working group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, Al Palmer, and Kiera Faber)
Nontheist Friends Network, UK

QM + Creative conversation – sharing our spiritual journeys – Thur 6 June 7pm

Dear Friends,
We hope this note finds you well. Many thanks to Catherine Carr for sharing her creative conversation around Doubt and encouraging self reflection and introspection through various modalities.
We hope you will join us for our next Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation in June.
Please note this will be our last creative conversation before we take a summer holiday for the months of July and August.  
The 6 June QM+CC at 7PM BST/2PM EDT by Zoom, will offer an opportunity to share about spiritual journeys.  We will invite participants to focus on one specific aspect that has had significant meaning in shaping their sense of self.
General layout: 
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM UK time, please arrive early.
• 7PM UK time: Welcome and Quaker Meeting (~20 minutes): Sharing silence with one another for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting.
• Creative Conversation and Discussion (~1 hour): Different participants will introduce a thought provoking, occasionally debatable question, brief statement, and/or reading.  This will be followed by an inspired discussion amongst all participants for creative exchanges and opportunities to disagree.
• Conclusion: Thoughts and a few moments to share silence.
• After Announcements the Zoom Room will remain open for friendly chats and community.
• Duration:1hr:30m-2hr:00m

Additional information about our QM+CC can be found on our website.

If you are interested in attending and have not registered for our Creative Conversations, please reply to this email. Our QM+CC Zoom links go out to registered participants only, thank you.

If you previously registered, there is no need to re-register, you are on the list.  You will automatically receive Zoom links to this and subsequent Meetings, approximately one week before each Meeting and a reminder the day of.  We ask that you please do not share the Zoom link with interested Friends, but encourage them to email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register. You may unregister/unsubscribe at any time by replying to this email address.

In Friendship,
The QM+CC Working group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, and Kiera Faber)
Nontheist Friends Network, UK

Reminders for Tonight and Thursday

Don’t forget the NTF (USA) meeting at 9pm tonight UK time:

The NTF meeting after that is December 5 which is the first Tuesday in December.
When it is hoped to talk about the the first four writings in ‘Godless for God’s Sake’.
This will be at 4pm Eastern Time so a little more convenient 9pm (please check!) in the UK.
I understand Robin Alpern, whose piece was the first of the four, and David Boulton as editor of ‘Godless for God’s Sake’, will likely be in attendance.

you should be able to find the link here if you have signed in to their google group; https://groups.google.com/g/nontheist-friends/

See the previous post for Thursday’s meeting at 7pm with David and John Senior.

MfW + Creative conversation – George Fox and us today – Thursday 7 December

Dear Friends,
We hope this note finds you well.  Many thanks to Al Palmer for sharing in November.  For some addition reflection and commentary inspired by Al’s talk and writing, please take a moment to read our web master, Trevor Bending’s, recent post here.
 We hope you will join us for our next Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation in December.
7 December QM+CC at 7PM GMT/2PM EST by Zoom, will introduce the concern, FOX AND US: What does the life and ministry of George Fox mean for a nontheist Friend?

David Boulton and John Senior will share their own thoughts, engage one another in a creative dialogue, and then invite all participants into the creative conversation.

General layout: 
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM UK time, please arrive early.
• 7PM UK time: Welcome and Quaker Meeting (~20 minutes): Sharing silence with one another for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting.
• Creative Conversation and Discussion (~1 hour): Different participants will introduce a thought provoking, occasionally debatable question, brief statement, and/or reading.  This will be followed by an inspired discussion amongst all participants for creative exchanges and opportunities to disagree.
• Conclusion: Thoughts and a few moments to share silence.
• After Announcements the Zoom Room will remain open for friendly chats and community.
• Duration:1hr:30m-2hr:00mAdditional information about our QM+CC can be found on our website.

If you are interested in attending and have not registered for our Creative Conversations, please email the clerk as below.

If you previously registered, there is no need to re-register, you are on the list.  You will automatically receive Zoom links to this and subsequent Meetings, approximately one week before each Meeting and a reminder the day of.  We ask that you please do not share the Zoom link with interested Friends, but encourage them to email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register. You may unregister/unsubscribe at any time by replying to this email address.

In Friendship,
The QM+CC Working group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, and Kiera Faber)
Nontheist Friends Network, UK

Spirituality, mysticism, non-duality, and non-theism

First a quick NFN news roundup.
On Thursday (2nd November) we had a most interesting presentation by Al Palmer of Saline, Michigan USA at our monthly Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation. This has prompted this longer than usual post. About a dozen Friends from the USA were present (out of 64 in total) and a number of these attend or organise the NTF meetings in America which a few of us from the UK attend occasionally.

Nontheist Friends in North America (NTF) continue to meet regularly and details can be found through the google group; https://groups.google.com/g/nontheist-friends/
I believe the next meeting of NTF (after the Contemplative Sharing meeting at 4pm tomorrow 11 November) will be on Sunday 19th November at 7pm EDT so rather late for us at I think midnight GMT when Robin Alpern will present on ‘Do you consider yourself a pacifist?
Does nontheism have anything to do with your views on the peace testimony?’

The NTF meeting after that is December 5 which is the first Tuesday in December.
When it is hoped to talk about the the first four writings in ‘Godless for God’s Sake’.
This will be at 4pm Eastern Time so a little more convenient 9pm (please check!) in the UK.
I understand Robin Alpern, whose piece was the first of the four, and David Boulton as editor of ‘Godless for God’s Sake’, will likely be in attendance.

Our next NFN meeting will be on Thursday 7th December at 7pm (2pm USA Eastern) on ‘FOX AND US: What does the life and ministry of George Fox mean for a nontheist Friend?’
January’s (4th January) is still being finalised but may be a conversation about meditation and the practice of silence or stillness.

Reflecting on the State of Your Spirituality
Al Palmer’s presentation gave us much to reflect on.  David Boulton raised the question of ‘two types of nontheist Quaker’: those who are content to stick with poetic, metaphorical and non-literal interpretations of ‘old or traditional’ language (God and all the rest as metaphor and so on) and those who need ‘new language’ to say what they mean. (In the plenary session, it was Andrea Henley Heyn from the US who raised this question of old and new language and sensitivity around this and David later put it in terms of different kinds of non-theists.) I think we will have to refer again to ‘God, words and us’ to which David, Michael Wright and others contributed.
I think there is quite a broad range of nontheist views which does not just depend on language used. We can perhaps see a continuum from ‘no nonsense’ materialists or convinced atheists at one end (there ain’t no God’) to agnostics, universalists, ’I may be mistakens’, ‘still seekings’ and nontheist cuckoos ( not your usual conceptions of God) at the other.
At most, we all agree (I think) that there is no ‘old man in the sky with a long white beard’ as portrayed by William Blake (who didn’t believe in that kind of God either).
What to make though of other language and concepts like the divine, spirit, spirituality, mysticism, worship, prayer and so on.
In what follows, I’m going to include a number of links to articles in Wikipedia as an easy way to start looking at what others think or hold.
Some nontheists are uncomfortable with the word ‘divine’ for example, thinking that it implies a divinity (God) in which they do not believe. Others (non-theists) like myself are quite comfortable with that word as a loose term (perhaps thinking of chocolate) and even with the ‘divine presence’ – something like a ‘gathered meeting’ or ‘the sense of the meeting’ perhaps. When Georgina and I got married at our meeting in London, in our declaration (QF&P 16.52 – https://qfp.quaker.org.uk/passage/16-52/) we chose promising, ‘through divine assistance,’ rather than ‘with God’s help’.

Mysticism is another word uncomfortable for some nontheists, perhaps associating it with magic or something ‘supernatural’. For other nontheists it is simply an acceptance some things are a mystery (consciousness for example?), that we don’t (yet) know everything and that in any case there is more to life and our psychology or mind than the purely rational.
Wikipedia writes: “The term “mystical experience” has become synonymous with the terms “religious experience”, spiritual experience and sacred experience” in an article entitled ’Scholarly approaches to mysticism’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly_approaches_to_mysticism#Mystical_experience

‘Worship’ as a word to describe Meeting has its difficulties, not fully resolved perhaps by Advices and Queries 8&9 for example, which rely heavily on ‘God’. See what Michael Wright (our former clerk, who died a couple of years ago) said towards the end (p17 handout 2) of his talk on ‘Prayer beyond belief’ ten years ago; https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/prayer-beyond-belief.pdf (or under Articles on the website). See also what he had to say about Gretta Vosper and her approach to prayer further down the Articles page.

Spirit and spirituality seem to raise fewer problems for nontheists although some (incorrectly I think) tend to associate them with ‘spiritualism’, genies and the many spirits of older religions. Intriguing NT passages for me are when Jesus says, in effect, you may ‘blaspheme against the Son’ (and in one case ‘the Father’) but not against the Spirit; Mark 3:28-30  “28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” (KJV); Luke 12:10 “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”; and non-canonical Thomas logion 44 “Jesus said, “Whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.”  I’ve always taken these to mean that there is some ‘spirit’ behind everything which might be ‘the light of pure reason’ (Winstanley) or the life-force found in everything which is alive.
Non-duality, related to meditation or contemplation ( see the talk on 4th January) was the subject of two talks by John Tissandier to the Quaker Universalist Group in April and May. But see the article in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

Let’s see what tomorrow brings.

MfW+Creative Conversation Thursday 4 May – Are Nontheist Quakers Humanists?

Dear Friends,
We hope this finds you well.  Many thanks to John Richter for inspiring participants to reflect and share diverse perspectives during April’s Meeting.
Please join us for our next Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation in May.
4 May QM+CC at 7PM BST/2PM EDT by Zoom, will introduce the concern, Are Nontheist Quakers Humanists? (A conversation between Friends).
For additional context and preparation, we encourage you to enjoy a talk delivered by Andrew Copson, executive director of Humanists UK (British Humanists Association), from NFN’s July 2021 conference, That’s the Spirit! – Dimensions of Spirituality.
You can also read David Boulton’s QUG pamphlet ‘The Faith of a Quaker Humanist‘.
General layout: 
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM UK time, please arrive early. 
• 7PM UK time: Welcome and Quaker Meeting (~20 minutes): Sharing silence with one another for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting. 
• Creative Conversation and Discussion (~1 hour): Different participants will introduce a thought provoking, occasionally debatable question, brief statement, and/or reading.  This will be followed by an inspired discussion amongst all participants for creative exchanges and opportunities to disagree.
• Conclusion: Thoughts and a few moments to share silence. 
• After Announcements the Zoom Room will remain open for friendly chats and community. 
• Duration:1hr:30m-2hr:00m Additional information about our QM+CC can be found on our website. If you are interested in attending and have not registered, please reply to this email.If you previously registered, there is no need to re-register, you are on the list.  You will automatically receive Zoom links to this and subsequent Meetings, approximately one week before each Meeting and a reminder the day of.  We ask that you please do not share the Zoom link with interested Friends, but encourage them to email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register. You may unregister/unsubscribe at any time by replying to this email address.In Friendship,
The QM+CC Working group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, and Kiera Faber)
Nontheist Friends Network ALL are welcome to attend Nontheist Friends Network events regardless of Membership, beliefs, and/or religious affiliation. If you would like to support NFN and our endeavours, please consider renewing your membership, becoming a new member, or making a donation by filling out our Membership and Donations Form.  Thank you in advance for your generous support!

A nontheist Christmas?

Quakers don’t famously do Christmas. (Consider the word order and absence of commas).

What more could you expect for Xmas except a Bumper Post? (This is it).
Tim has posted the details of the AGM and I will post the details for the intervening Meeting and Creative Conversation, which have already been sent out by email, soon.
For the AGM I’ll just remind everyone about the Constitution and:
8. Any proposed amendments to this constitution must be sent in writing to the Clerk at least 20 days* before the AGM. The Clerk will circulate them at least 10 days before the AGM. Only the AGM may authorise amendments. (* ie. by 30 December email clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk).

It might be an idea to look at the Constitution now.

I have been reading Rhiannon Grant’s Quaker Quick Hearing the Light, (the metaphors are deliberately mixed).  A 60 page masterpiece (if that’s not incorrectly gendered) which I thoroughly recommend.  It’s I suppose a sort of follow up to Telling the Truth about God of which I’ve lent two copies as soon as bought so haven’t read yet.  Rhiannon’s belief in God is carefully explained and her position does not seem very far from that of ‘nonbelieving’ NFN members.  For more on this topic on this website see here.

This article on the Death of God by a Catholic writer might give more food for thought: https://christogenesis.org/the-death-of-god-and-the-rebirth-of-god/

As does this take on the ‘Divine‘ by Quaker nontheist Sam Barnett-Cormack.

Remembering Os Cresson’s Quaker and Naturalist too, Friends may find this website of interest: https://religious-naturalist-association.org/welcome/

If you want to treat yourself (or a Friend) for Christmas (and into February), this new course from Woodbrooke on the Gospel of Mary may be just the thing.  Meanwhile, the Bishops may have something to say about same-sex relationships.

Bearing in mind the recent poll (or was it a census result?) about declining religious belief in the UK, this latest post from Chuck Fager on the situation in the USA, is worth a read.

Now, please don’t let’s forget the poor billionnaires this Christmas as The Equality Trust (with Quaker connections – think The Spirit Level) write; their report is also written up in the Grauniad. (I’d favour 90-95 pence in the pound myself as used to be the case in the USA and I think the UK in the 60s or 70s). (A testimony to Equality?)

Not quite finally, here is Frank Cranmer’s post ‘What has Religion got to do with “Corporate Purpose”?’ on the Law and Religion blog.

If you fancy something scandalous for Christmas, here’s a book or two in another offering from the Church Times.

And finally, for Christmas, a nice picture of Suella Braverman.

Hope that will do for now.

Something or other?

Delightful post (today) from Chuck Fager about ‘Something’ (or whatever you call it):
https://afriendlyletter.com/renegade-quaker-theology-my-breaking-point-summer-2011/

‘We’ nontheists don’t agree with Chuck do we? You have to admire his Catholic leaning grim sense of humour (humor?) and fate though.

See you Thursday?

The Theist cuckoo in the Nontheist Nest – tonight 7 April 2022

Just a friendly reminder!
We look forward to seeing you tonight.
QM+CC Working Group (Gisela Creed, John Senior, William Purser, and Kiera Faber)

Dear Friend,
Thank you for registering for our Quaker Meeting and Creative Conversation, organized by the NFN, UK.
David Parlett will share his presentation, A Theist Cuckoo in the Nontheist Nest, on Thursday 7 April at 7PM UK time by Zoom.
Please arrive early, as the Meeting will start promptly at 7PM.  The Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM.

Email email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register IF you have not already done so.

Format:
• Zoom Room opens at 6:45PM, please arrive early.
• 7PM: Welcome and Quaker Meeting: approximately 20 minutes for quietly gathering ourselves and connecting.
• Creative Conversation: up to 20 minutes for presentation or raising a question.
• Open Discussion: up to 40 minutes, in the Main Zoom room, for creative exchanges, expressions, and reactions.
• Conclusion: ending with a few moments gathered in silence.
• Duration:1hr:20m – 2hr (For interested Friends, we will leave the Zoom room open after the Meeting closes for casual conversations)
You will automatically receive Zoom links to subsequent Meetings, approximately one week before each Meeting. There is no need to re-register. We ask that you please do not share the Zoom link with interested Friends, but encourage them to email the Clerk (clerk@nontheist-quakers.org.uk) to register. You may unregister/unsubscribe at any time by replying to this email address.

John Richter’s talk – some thoughts on the challenge

John Richter’s talk on Thursday evening did not feature his work as an artist but proved to be a provoking challenge to Quakers today, non-theist or not, to perhaps change the way we approach things if we are not (in terms of membership) to continue in terminal decline.
John’s ideas might have been unconventional after 60 years a Quaker, perhaps still feeling ‘On the Edge of Quakers’, but drew out a lively conversation of different or opposing views amongst those present (about 82 for the talk).
Our own William P(urser) closed the conversation at the very end with this from a somewhat earlier William P(enn):

“True godliness don’t turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it, and excites their endeavours to mend it… Christians should keep the helm and guide the vessel to its port; not meanly steal out at the stern of the world and leave those that are in it without a pilot to be driven by the fury of evil times upon the rock or sand of ruin”. (QF&P 23.02) William Penn 1682.

One of John’s suggestions (in relation to his own somewhat declining meeting at Wells-next-the-Sea (Norfolk, England)) was, weather permitting, to leave the doors open so anyone might wander in during the meeting and for people to join or leave the meeting at times to suit themselves – a practice also followed by Friends 340 years ago and indeed in the Sikh Gurudwara today. (In both cases much longer ‘meetings for worship’ – perhaps 3-4 hours amongst 17th century Quakers and sunrise to sunset amongst Sikhs).

Meetings often have a copy of the Bible, Quaker Faith and Practice (The book of Christian discipline of the Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) in Britain – the ‘big red book’), Advices and Queries (the ‘little red book’ being Chapter 1 of QF&P) and sometimes other books or leaflets on the table, with a vase of flowers, in the centre of the meeting. Piers thought that visitors or newcomers to a meeting find this off-putting if the Bible and ‘Christian discipline’ have negative associations for them. But, we are the Religious Society of Friends and there were contributions from those who disliked the associations of ‘Spiritual’ whilst others might want to emphasise ’the Society’ (of which you can be a member – ’socio’ in Spanish) at the expense of ‘Religious’. Tom Shakespeare the 2020 Swarthmore Lecturer (https://www.woodbrooke.org.uk/research/swarthmore-lectures/) expressed a preference for ‘Religious not Spiritual’, doubtful about those who say they are ’Spiritual not religious’ and the associations of ’Spiritual’ with ‘New Age’ spirituality and perhaps ’Spiritualism’.

However, Jesus said: Mark 3.28-9 “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” (New Revised Standard Version).
And as the Nontheist Friends Network, our online conference in 2021 was entitled ’That’s the Spirit – Dimensions of Spirituality’
(https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/events/thats-the-spirit-dimensions-of-spirituality-nfn-conference-2021/ ) which included an impassioned talk on Humanist (or secular) Spirituality.by Andrew Copson of Humanists UK. See also https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/articles/the-faith-of-a-quaker-humanist/#Spirituality

John posed two questions at the end of his talk for the group to consider:
1 What is the purpose of Quakers?
a John’s 4-word answer was “to explore religion together” and
b He asked us to respond with our four-word answers.
2 To flourish as a society we need to make ourselves meaningful to ourselves and to people who might join. What do we need to change?

Howard answered the first with (5 words perhaps) “to have our answers questioned”. Whilst this was drawn from some Quaker pamphlet or notice and makes a nice ‘sound-bite’, I strongly suspect that many would like their questions answered too – I know I would.

John especially wanted to emphasise the open-ness of Quakers and the open ended search for truth which has evolved from the 17th century when Friends felt they had the ‘Truth’ and while this latter claim might still be true in terms of ‘the spirit within’, the ‘inner light’, the ‘Christ within’ and so on, nonetheless we recognise that there are different kinds of truth (for example scientific truth, historical truth, spiritual truth, ‘the facts’, your truth and my truth – what is true for you is not necessarily true for me, and so on) and Friends ask ‘Are you open to new light , from whatever source it may come?’ (Advices and Queries no. 7) (Some Friends question ‘from whatever source’?).

So we see that your answers may indeed be questioned but our ‘queries’ often constitute implicit ‘advice’. We can question and seek but we can also find, or perhaps that’s ‘discern’ in ‘quakerspeak’. We no longer (as Quakers did in the 17th century) go out of our way to attack or challenge ‘Puritans’ (Evangelicals?) or Papists and indeed many of us now find wisdom from the (Western) Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions too, even if we rather specialise in being unorthodox or heretical. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy for a good overview of heresy). The great majority of Quakers in the world, in the Americas and Africa in particular, are members of evangelical or programmed meetings with quite different worship practices and beliefs from most ‘unprogrammed’ Quakers in meetings like BYM. Friends World Committee for Consultation (FWCC – https://fwcc.world/about-us/) by and large succeeds in uniting all the different sorts of Quakers into one ‘family’ with a common heritage and willingness to see beyond differences and work together to ‘mend the world’.

John had himself suggested some ideas for change in his talk and these included the above-mentioned openness (even open doors) and focussing on being a society of Friends rather than a church (building or meeting) and not making silence our creed – that is to say emphasising the importance of spoken ministry and attentive ‘listening’ to what might come to us during the silence. Other Friends present emphasised the importance of friendship and being meetings of friends – doing things together, socialising together as well as to ‘live better in the world, and be excited in their endeavours to mend it’. Whilst there were disagreements and differences of emphasis, many of these came down to different language: spiritual not religious or v.v, society v. church and meeting v. church. The development of language about ‘God’ – or ‘whatever you call it’ is particularly demanding: God is real or a metaphor, ‘theist’ or ’nontheist’ might be a continuum rather than either/or – see, for example, ‘God, words and us’ – https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/?s=God%2C+words+and+us

Whether you were present at John’s talk or not, please let us have your comments and thoughts below!