What is Nontheism?
‘Godless for God’s Sake – Nontheism in Contemporary Quakerism, by 27 Quaker Nontheists’, Edited by David Boulton, is a collection of essays which demonstrate the rich variety of nontheist Quaker experience. Below are some extracts from the essays. These are followed by extracts from other sources which reflect on liberal Quaker beliefs – click here to jump to these.
(For 2017 re-prints, see this post.)
- There is no one answer, no unified or official ‘nontheist Quaker view’ – any more than there is one official theist Quaker view. (p.5, David Boulton)
- Nontheism … is …the absence of any belief in a deity or deities, in the existence of God (where ‘existence’ is understood in a realist, objective sense), and especially belief in one God as creator and supreme ruler. (p.6, David Boulton)
- Some Quaker nontheists have wholly abandoned ‘God language’ and hope for a progressive relinquishment of such language within the Society. Some choose not to use the word ‘God’ themselves but are happy to ‘translate’ it when it is used by other Friends in written or spoken ministry or in conversation. Some have no problem using traditional Quaker Godspeak – ‘God’, ‘that of God’, ‘the Spirit’, ‘the divine’, ‘the inner light’ – understanding these hallowed and resonant terms metaphorically, symbolically, poetically, instrumentally, signifying the sum of our human values, the imagined embodiment of our human ideals, the focus of our ultimate concern: no more, but, gloriously, no less than all that makes up the wholly human spirit. (p.7-8, David Boulton)
- …I use the word ‘nontheistic’ primarily because ‘atheist’ has such negative associations. ‘Atheist’ actually means without, not necessarily against, God. Since I don’t know if God exists, and since some good has been done as a result of belief in God, I am not opposed to God. But whereas some Friends might interpret feelings of rightness or wonder or love as caused by God, I would be likely to interpret them as arising from simple human mechanics and dynamics. (p.19, Robin Alpern)
- I was (am) not a Christian. I did (do) not see any reason to believe in any God outside the laws of nature and the workings of the (endlessly complicated) human mind. (p.27, Philip Gross)
- ‘For artists, making isn’t making up; in whatever terms you choose, it is relationship. If I say God is a metaphor, I don’t mean a figure in an allegory, made to stand for the thing we know it stands for. I mean an image, found or ‘given’, with a deep life of its own, with resonances as yet undisclosed, maybe inexhaustible. This is actually very everyday. All our grandmothers knew that sleeping on a problem often finds an answer. You don’t have to believe in mystic forces to know you can surprise yourself in your dreams, or be a paid-up Jungian to say that there is far more than one ego’s experience somewhere down there in us all. (p.28, Philip Gross)
- ‘We move. Sometimes we are moved and sometimes it results from our earlier movements. Some movements are private, only noticeable to the person moving. Some barely feel like motion. Talking and remembering are motions, as are sensing and experiencing.
Motions are physical events caused by other physical events. We are part of the ebb and flow of the universe. All is in motion, nothing stands still. Suns rise, birds sing, and poets write. The universe rolls along.This is enough for naturalists who assume nothing exists but events we observe or reasonably infer from observations. (p.37, Os Cresson)
- A common theist critique of nontheism is that disbelief in ‘something more’ reflects the arrogant assumption that what humans can see and measure is the be-all and end-all of reality. On the contrary, no reasonable nontheist – atheist, agnostic, humanist, naturalist – believes that human knowledge encompasses all of reality, or even comes close. It is the scientific worldview that utterly depends on a keen, rigorous and critical distinction between what we know, and what we do not know. What we can observe, examine, grasp, measure – that is what human beings can know. The rest we cannot know. A claim to knowledge of a realm beyond the one we live in, on the other hand, could be described as arrogance. If in fact there is some divine realm apart from the world we live in, all we can honestly say about that realm is that we do not know it, because we do not live in it. We live in the physical world. A world which, once again, contains enough mystery to keep us in awe forever. (p.48-49, James T Dooley Riemermann)
- When the most thoughtful believers speak to me of God, it almost always comes through to me as a heightened awareness of relationship. Grammatically, God is a being, an entity, but what Friends tend to describe as God seems more like an event, an encounter, that occurs when a self-aware individual becomes intensely aware of relationship – with another human being, with a community of Friends, with the complex web of beings and resources that sustain life on earth, with the sun that feeds energy to that web, with the entire cosmos out of which emerged absolutely everything we value. What a breathtaking moment is that encounter! Here I am, living my life as if I were a single soul, a person, a mind mysteriously sprung from a physical body. And in an instant it dawns on me that I am not just myself. On the contrary, the energy of the universe flows through me, and at my death will pass through me me and back into everything that exists! My God! This is no metaphor, there is nothing magical or supernatural about it, nor is it something more out there with which I can occasionally commune. Rather, it is the essential, undeniable, literal, constant reality of being human in the real world. We are part of everything, and it is all linked together. (p.50-51, James T Dooley Riemermann)
Other extracts
- In his interesting paper ‘Quaker Diversity’, the full text of which can be found on the Articles & Links page, Paul Bates discusses nontheism as follows:
Nontheism differs from theism in asserting that the visible world is the only real world that we will ever experience and that ‘God’ is a mythical projection or personification of our own desires to construct value, meaning and dignity in our life here on earth.
There is no pre-defined code of ethics ‘out there’ which we are obliged to live by – the only ethics we have are those principles of conduct which we humans have devised for ourselves over thousands of years of human history.
There are no absolute rules for how human society should be organized or how we should conduct ourselves as individuals. The cosmos does not reveal to us any pre-defined blueprint for how life should be conducted here on earth.
We seek to say ‘yes’ to life by constructing meaning for ourselves as individuals and as societies through our work, in our relationships and by facing suffering with courage and resolve. It is in these ways that we all may contribute to the creation of value and meaning in our own time and place.
Nontheists tend to agree with the liberal understanding of Jesus of Nazareth as a teacher from antiquity who taught a very human sort of religion based on love, tolerance, forgiveness and peace. The doctrines of incarnation, resurrection and ascension are seen as attempts by the early church to raise the human Jesus to the level of a mythical God.
The nontheist sees the work of the Holy Spirit in the human heart more in terms of the spontaneous, natural inner working of the human psyche in which we meditate upon and respond to life as we presently experience it. The nontheist sees God in terms of ‘an inner light’ that is found in every human being. It is ‘that of God in everyone’.
The nontheist sees this life as the only life we will ever experience and is focussed on the living of this life to the full, now, and in accordance with those human principles that make for happiness and dignity for all.
- In ‘Quakers – a very short introduction’ Ben Pink Dandelion explains that Liberal Quakerism is not defined in terms of doctrine but in terms of the form of Quakerism…. its worship and business method, its testimony and values. Belief is plural but also marginal.
- From the BYM Whoosh! epistle: We discern a growing confidence within the Religious Society of Friends that our experience-based religion is increasingly what many people are looking for.
Growing numbers of people have rejected all claims to absolute truth, but are hungry for a path of personal and social transformation. This could be a ‘transition moment’ for British Quakers, as we discover a new radicalism in response to turbulent times.
Do we have the courage to speak with passion and conviction about our spiritual lives? Can we acquire the confidence to find our own words to express the ways in which we understand the divine? Can we encourage others as they reach for the language that is right for them?
- John Macmurray wrote in 1965: The central conviction which distinguishes the Society of Friends is that Christianity cannot be defined in terms of doctrinal beliefs; that what makes us Christians is an attitude of mind and a way of life; and these are compatible with wide variations and with changes of beliefs and opinions…
Faith no longer means the acceptance of an established creed or the assent to an authoritative system of doctrine. It recovers the original meaning of trust and fearless confidence; and this spirit of faith is expressed in a way of living which cares for one another and for the needs of all. (Search for Reality in Religion – John Macmurray, Swarthmore Lecture 1965)
- The English social historian G.M.Trevelyan wrote in his ‘English Social History’ (1944) in his chapter on Restoration England: The finer essence of George Fox’s queer teaching, common to the excited revivalists who were his first disciples, and to the “quiet” Friends of later times was surely this – that Christian qualities matter much more than Christian dogmas. No Church or sect had ever made that its living rule before.
To maintain the Christian quality in the world of business and domestic life, and to maintain it without pretension or hypocrisy, was the great achievement of these extraordinary people. England may well be proud of having produced and perpetuated them. The Puritan pot had boiled over, with much heat and fury; when it had cooled and been poured away, this precious sediment was left at the bottom.
Nontheist Friends Network 
“Faith is the belief in something that you know isn’t true”
….Mark Twain…
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Or hope might be true in the absence of evidence or any possibility of proof!
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Exactly Trevor…wishing you a most wonderful week ahead!
Peace Profound, Jules
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“If you believe in God, work with Him. If you do not, become one. ”
— Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Nice to have a choice, don’t you think?
Peace Profound, Jules
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Jules
I like your post on Faith, and Trevor’s on Hope.
On your next quote please enlighten me “……..become one” become what?
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Your question Gill, was my question too!
Growing up in Christianity & Bible Study pretty much shaped my life for decades…my questions always unanswered in the same way: one day, all will be revealed. My life was becoming one of stages, each stage, revealing more and more.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharij, steeped in the Hindu faith, found that his questions too, would one day be revealed. He found the answers by going within self..his quote demonstrates the journey:
“Even faith in God is only a stage on the way. Ultimately, you abandon all, for you come to something so simple that there are no words to express it”
He sums it all up so succinctly:
” I alone am, the One, the Supreme”
Perhaps some of this explains our journey as Non-Theists, that being, to discover the “god” within, and therefore, the goal of self mastery!
Jules
Peace Profound
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Interesting way of looking at things Jules. I am interested in like minded people, who I can learn from, and understand me.
I guess my questions go along the lines of “What can I do?”
I really like the words of Anne Marie Bonneau
“We don’t need a handful of people doing zero waste perfectly, we need millions of people doing it imperfectly” We all can try.
Also the phrase Rhiannon Grant writes in her book The Truth about God,
“behavioural creed” sums it up for me, it is how you behave that is important.
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Dear Gill,
What great quotes you bring forward…I’m in awe of people who can move me with just a few meaningful words, thereby, transporting one to a higher and better place.
This morning, I found this, which moved me towards the new day, ahead, Perhaps you and others will find it worthwhile.
“What do we live for, if it is not
to make life less difficult for each other?”
—– George Eliot—–
Your question, so clear, so earnest, “What can I do?” really demonstrates your resolve, your willingness, to be of servive. Bravo!
Looking into the mirror each morning and uttering one word, just one word, can and will change the world…that word is “available”
All the best,
Jules
Peace Profound
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Thank you Jules.
May I ask what does the word “available” mean to you?
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Hi Gill, Good question, I suppose the word “available” would mean different things to different folks.
While, most properly, the the correct phrase might be:
“I AM, available” signifying that one is open & ready for the message, for the assignment, ahead.
My first impression of watching unstructured Quakers as they go silent and appear to be waiting for something, really made me think.
Were they hoping for a message from the divine, were they meditating and hoping for inspiration, or were they sitting there, eyes closed thinking about their grocery list? No matter!
I am, available, for me, is just being there to whatever comes my way…whether it comes from the Cosmos, or something from deep within,.hoping that it may be instucting me to make this world a better place.
all the best, Gill
Jules, Peace Profound
“Live simply, so that other may simply live”
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The DISCIPLINE & POWER of SILENCE…………….
One of the greatest French mystics, Louis Claude de Saint-Martin, deserved to be named “the Unknown Silent One” by his disciples. More than anyone else, he exalted the virtue of silence. He wrote, “Great truths are taught only through silence.” Better yet, he made this remark which unfortunately applies so well to our times: “Is there a greater proof of human weakness than the multiplicity of our words?” It is very true that silence is a real test to the one who, through habit or tendency, does not know how to observe it. Tradition relates that the ancients had made a divinity out of silence; male in Greece, where it was named Harpocrates, and female in Rome, where it was called Tacita – well named since it is derived from the Latin, tacere, which means “to be silent.” This demonstrates to what extent our ancestors had worshiped this virtue; also, that the Romans had not considered gossip to be a foible of the fair sex. As explained in this message, the discipline of silence is a power; it allows us to maintain within a vital influx that useless words waste away. Before you speak, try to evaluate if what you intend to say is worthwhile or if it can do some good and, especially, if it is not going to cause any harm. You will notice that the effort you exerted in repressing a useless word causes a reaction within, a struggle against temptation. Each victory shall give you new power. That is why it is wise to follow the Sufi’s advice, and if what you are about to say is not more beautiful than silence, then abstain from speaking. Meditate upon this message; think about it often. It is hoped that it will help you to ascend one step higher on the ladder of spirituality.
—— Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin—–
Jules
TMO (Traditional Martinist Order)
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Dear Non-Theist Quakers…here is a treat (hopefully for most) it comes from Quebec Canada and is the most popular “Just For Laughs” program…it requires no dialogue.
As I travel to Canada at least once a month, I’m always delighted to watch this CBC presentation.
The strong Evangelical Christian component of America now won’t allow these kinds of shows to be broadcast here.
Mind you the Province of Quebec (highest for Catlholic count) has been running this TV show for years.
I’m laughing, perhaps you will too!
as ever, Jules
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21 minute video? Too long! Give me something to read instead!
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Hi Trevor..short & sweet…Sorry, 21 minutes is a long time whether viewing or reading…Americans too, now find reading Bumper Stickers is too time consuming.
LOL
all the best, Jules
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I have read another Quaker Quick, a book called Money and Soul by Pamela Haines, it was very interesting, again emphasising group dynamics but I was looking for more analysis. However I will now keep in mind an idea from her book when thinking about business, “the three P’s – Profit, People and Planet”.
I also came across an organisation called Friends Fiduciary which invest on Wall Street within Quaker principles for customers, but I could not find an UK equivalent. Does anyone else know of such an organisation?
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Hello Non Theists Quakers…I have no ideas on something called Quaker Priciples Investments (holding precepts of Quakerism)
But I did discover that many people do invest in Halal Mutual Funds, possiblly for the same reasons…no war, no weaponry, no tobacco, no alcohol, no pornography etc etc etc
For me, I did invest in Halal Funds and must report good results.
You can read about it here:
.https://www.saturna.com/halal
Jules
Peace Profound
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Thank you Jules, but that site is based on American dollars and I want an organisation based in the UK that supports Quaker values as gender equality is very important to me. Anyone know?
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Hi Gill
Did a search for ‘Quaker Investment UK’ and found:
http://www.yourfaithyourfinance.org/
https://quaker.org.uk/our-work/economic-justice/ethical-finance#heading-1
or repeat the search!
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You are welcome Gill…yes, the Saturna Funds are USA Dollar funded…
here is a link I ‘ve discovered for similar investing in the UK.
Interesting to see these types of opportunities emerging!
https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/75428/wahed-invest-launches-online-halal-investing-service-in-uk
Jules
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Thank you Trevor and Jules, I also found reference to the possibility of a Quaker bank but does not seem to have materialised. The Quaker Business group has some very interesting information too.
Indeed I am trying not to immediately jump in with a rebuttal, or argue my case, but just state my view generally.
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Hi All,
I am not part of any religious group although I was christened into the Catholic faith as a baby and attended Catholic schools growing up. The thing is I never really felt connected to the principles of the faith. Whilst I believe there are beautiful stories and no doubt valuable reasons to be learnt from the Bible. “God” just has never really been something I felt I could connect too. It almost makes me feel guilty saying it in writing but it’s true for me. Praying to God just has never felt right for me.
But on the other hand, I’ve always felt a sense of there being something greater that can move within us, bring us peace and enlightenment. The universe perhaps with all its wondrous powers, the complexity of and in ourselves fascinates me.
I stumbled across the practice of Friends after watching a movie today Fanny Lye Deliever’d about an oppressed British women in 1678 breaks free from her restraints and it mentions at the end of the movie that she found her way by eventually joining the Religious Society of Friends, also known as Quakers. Automatically I was intrigued to understand more so I did a history search, watched a number of videos on YouTube on the values, principles etc of the faith. And then I came further along and found all this information on Nontheist Quakers, I’m in sort of awe by it all. Watching everyone speak, the intelligence, the peacefulness and the calmness. The silent meetings. All of it. To be honest I’ve been up half the night because I haven’t been able to get it out of my head & potentially my heart.
I live in the Middle East so I’m uncertain if the practice goes on here but obviously it must. I’m intrigued to understand more but at the same time I feel vulnerable and a bit scared because I’m worried what it means for those around me. Will it change me? What will they think…
I know I should be bolder than this because I do feel like I’m reaching for more in my life to help ground me. I’d appreciate any words of wisdom, given all the great comments and articles on here. It felt right to reach out to you all 🙂
Best Regards, Loulou
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Hi Loulou, I’m sorry I didn’t see this till just now.
I manage the website and your comment will be published shortly. I will also publish this as a reply to your comment which is a very beautiful enquiry!
I will have to look up that film!
The majority of Quakers (in Britain) are not non-theists and worldwide the great majority are Christian but this is possibly not true in Britain where we have Anglican quakers (Quanglicans), Catholic quakers, Jewish Quakers, Muslim Quakers, Hindu Quakers, Buddhist Quakers, Humanist quakers and so on.
Quakers have been active in the Middle East since almost the beginning (1660’s) and you will find that in our history. Today, amongst other presences, there is the Friends’ School in Ramallah (Palestine, established in the 19th century) and Brummana High School in the Lebanon.
I know very little about the middle east or Quaker presence there and you don’t say which part of the region you are in.
However, our international body (based partly in London) the Friends World Committee for Consultation (FWCC) has a Europe and Middle East section (EMES). That body is supported by but independent of any Quaker Yearly Meeting (which are also independent of each other across the world and include many ‘different sorts’ of Quakers).
See their website Here:
http://fwcc.world/ they speak about ‘kinds of Friends’ here but are rather quiet about non-theists!: http://fwcc.world/kinds-of-friends
The EMES is here: https://www.fwccemes.org/ some of their links will take you to online meetings for worship here: https://www.woodbrooke.org.uk/about/online-mfw (sitting in silence for 30-45 minutes on a zoom screen might be a strange experience!)
but see ‘Find a meeting’ at the top of that page which includes Egypt and Dubai (UAE).
You can also contact many meetings in the UK, USA and elsewhere directly to ask about online meetings in the present coronavirus situation.
eg.: in Britain: https://www.quaker.org.uk/meetings (find a meeting) or https://www.quaker.org.uk/meetings/all (browse UK A-Z)
Let me know if we can be of any further help, join NFN (free at present – https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/about/nfn-membership/) if you like and browse the websites shown above for further information or start another conversation on the NFN website.
In Friendship
Trevor
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Hi Loulou
I missed these links for you:
https://www.fwccemes.org/calendar/online-meetings-for-worship-around-europe-the-middle-east
http://fwcc.world/kinds-of-friends/online-worship (USA and worldwide)
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Thank you Lou Lou…much of what you say and feel rings true in my own experiences.
My path towards non-theism has always been laced with a degree of guilt and fear.
To that end, I find that a bit of humour helps…why be so serious?
Here’s a few examples of where some have punctuated their belief in the non-belief, enjoy!
Rhymes for the Irreverent
Yip Harburg’s poems
Atheist
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree;
And only God who makes the tree
Also makes the fools like me.
But only fools like me, you see,
Can make a God, who makes a tree.
Realist
“For what we are about to receive,
Oh Lord, ’tis Thee we thank,”
Said the Cannibal as he cut a slice
Of the missionary’s shank.
Agnostic
No matter how much I probe and prod,
I cannot quite believe in God;
But oh, I hope to God that He
Unswervingly believes in me.
A Nose is a Nose is a Nose
Mother, Mother,
Tell me please,
Did God who gave us flowers and trees,
Also provide the allergies?
Lead Kindly Light
Where Bishop Patrick crossed the street
An “X” now marks the spot.
The light of God was with him,
But the traffic light was not.
Do Unto Others?
“Love thy neighbor as thyself?”
Hide that motto on the shelf!
Let it lie there, keep it idle
Especially if you’re suicidal.
Federal Reserve
In ’29 when the banks went bust,
Our coins still read “In God We Trust.”
Peace Profound, Jules
“
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Thanks so much Jules! These made my morning & you are so incredibly right, with the existence of so much already external stresses that can weigh you down, what real use is it to be further harsh on oneself. When it feels so much nicer to be kind and gentle and positive. 🙂 It’s a better feeling place in your heart and offers so much more to the world around us. When we feel good, we are in a better place to uplift others.
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Hi LouLou.
Reading your words have touched something in me. I’ve been raised christian but it didn’t always fit for me. I felt like we were always having to apologise for our sins of being human. I didnt quite understand why you couldn’t just live a good life with values without having to give thanks to God for doing so. Attributing all good fortune/decisions/circumstances to God but anything that went wrong was down to humans not being good enough.
I’ve been reading around different faiths now for a while. Im a nurse and i see how having faith is a comfort for people- especially in times of difficulty. But finding the faith that suits me hasn’t been straight forward.
Then i found the nontheist quakers and it just resonates with me. Living a good human life. Improving your self, your life and the lives of those around you. Silent worship, time with yourself, with your thoughts. It really has caught me.
Sorry for the long post, its my first and I’m not really sure what I’m hoping to achieve without but I felt the need to comment.
Jo
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In the beginning, Man created god…and deemed it good.
Later Man created the collection plate, and we all know how that turned out!
So let us leave it at the fact that god does exist, but only if you spell it with two “O’s”
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Hi LouLou. I enjoyed reading what you have to say and I’m so glad you have found Quakerism. I am atheist, I think, but all my life have lived according to the Quaker Testimonies without realising I was doing so. But what a relief when I found Quakerism via all sorts of wanderings, Buddhist meditation, yoga, Humanism and trying to be ‘Christian’ but not having the beliefs. Without doubt there is some kind of energy, spiritual I suppose during Meeting for Worship and don’t let terminology put you off. Life had to have some kind of source and energy and for me there’s nothing better than being with like minded folk however they describe ‘it’. Liz
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Hi Liz…right on!
My journey is so similar, Buddhism, Atheism, Freedom from Religion, Humanism, Freethinkers etc. etc.
I guess it qualifies us as the “Me Too” bunch, LOL
In non-theist Quakerdom, I particularly appreciate the stance on making our lives better, by being better.
Peace profound,, from Jules.
.
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Dear all
It is so interesting reading about your different stories that bring you here, there seems to be a common thread of searching, which I too have.
Brought up an atheist, attending CoE school, with life experience teaching me about the comfort many religions can bring some people and destruction for others. I have come to this place but still yearn to spend time in the physical presence of like minded people.
I hope that soon there will be a Non-theist friends zoom at least to put faces to names and one day I will be able to meet in person some. It is good to feel at home.
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Most interesting, a lot to think about. In the meantime, here is a typo to correct: change “notions” to “motions” at the end of the first paragraph in my excerpt! Keep up your many useful efforts!
Os Cresson (Iowa City, Iowa, USA)
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That tiny change has been made Os. Is there any news on your nontheistfriends website which has been down for nearly two months now?
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Let me try some other ways of contacting our web master. Thanks for the reminder!
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